 | By His Grace Ministries
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Jewel
Age : 27
Joined : 28 Jan 2008
Posts : 145
Location : Baltimore
|  Subject: AGE of Accountability  Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:37 am | |
| I called BEEP TALK on Way Of The Master and asked a question about Age of Accountability. If you get a chance, click HERE and listen to the Pre-Show Show. Its basically the first 2 minutes of the show. Listen to the answer that Todd Friel gave me and let me know what you think.
If you can't or don't have time to listen to the show, give me your opinion on whether there is an AGE or LEVEL of accountability. What does the Bible mean when it says, "All have sinned..." and "There is only one way to Heaven...and that's through salvation in Christ'. Thanks a bunch!
If you wanna listen to it, click HERE and its the HOUR ONE. Again, its within the first 2 minutes or less of the show. Thanks!
_________________
"If you believe what you like about the gospel, but reject what you do not like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.."---Augustine of Hippo. |
|   | | Expositor
Administrator
Joined : 25 Jan 2008
Posts : 585
Location : Baltimore, MD
| | Subject: Re: AGE of Accountability Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:48 pm | |
| | Jewel wrote: | I called BEEP TALK on Way Of The Master and asked a question about Age of Accountability. If you get a chance, click HERE and listen to the Pre-Show Show. Its basically the first 2 minutes of the show. Listen to the answer that Todd Friel gave me and let me know what you think.
If you can't or don't have time to listen to the show, give me your opinion on whether there is an AGE or LEVEL of accountability. What does the Bible mean when it says, "All have sinned..." and "There is only one way to Heaven...and that's through salvation in Christ'. Thanks a bunch!
If you wanna listen to it, click HERE and its the HOUR ONE. Again, its within the first 2 minutes or less of the show. Thanks! |
While all have sinned, and while we inherit our sinful nature from Adam, I think there is a level of accountability. I wouldn't dare put an age on it. Samuel was called at a very young age himself.
If you remember the story of David, when his son was deathly ill, he was praying and fasting. But, when his son died, he got up from where he was and ate. His servants questioned how he could just get up and eat and David said that there was no need for him to fast and pray any longer, He would see his son again.
I think as soon as a child can understand right from wrong, they need to be told of the consequences of sin. Of course, I wouldn't explain it to a 4 year old like I would a teenager, but I think there are ways to "train your child up in the ways of the Lord." This is why I made it a point in Sunday School to address the Ten Commandments, God's holiness, the penalty of sin, and the redeeming gospel just about every week.
_________________
It's true that doctrine divides. It's also true that love unifies. The unity we have in the faith is rooted and grounded in truth and love. Remove truth (right theology and doctrine) from the mix and you have less than Biblical unity. Remove love and you have no unity. Love causes us to seek truth and share that truth with others so that we become more unified. God is truth, and as we are more acquainted with His truth, the closer we are to Him, and the closer we become to each other |
| | | | Jewel
Age : 27
Joined : 28 Jan 2008
Posts : 145
Location : Baltimore
| | Subject: Re: AGE of Accountability Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:53 am | |
| I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea that there are TWO ways into heaven. The Bible NEVER mentions that all babies will inherit eternal life. I don't even think it was insinuated. The Bible says that ALL have sinned. I look at my nephew and my godchildren and, even before they turn one, there are just as sinful as they wanna be. CUTE, but sinful. They are selfish, crying all hours of the night if they don't get attention. At 10 months they know right from wrong, with certain things. Children who die, die in their sins. And, the Bible teaches me that, unless you are born again, you will not inherit the kingdom...PERIOD. It doens't say, "Once you understand, then God will hold you accountable." Because then I should ask, how about a mentally challenged individual, who grows up to be 20 years old, but has the mental capacity of a 6 year old. Will they see Heaven?
_________________
"If you believe what you like about the gospel, but reject what you do not like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.."---Augustine of Hippo. |
| | | | Expositor
Administrator
Joined : 25 Jan 2008
Posts : 585
Location : Baltimore, MD
| | Subject: Re: AGE of Accountability Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:20 am | |
| | Jewel wrote: | | I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea that there are TWO ways into heaven. The Bible NEVER mentions that all babies will inherit eternal life. I don't even think it was insinuated. The Bible says that ALL have sinned. I look at my nephew and my godchildren and, even before they turn one, there are just as sinful as they wanna be. CUTE, but sinful. They are selfish, crying all hours of the night if they don't get attention. At 10 months they know right from wrong, with certain things. Children who die, die in their sins. And, the Bible teaches me that, unless you are born again, you will not inherit the kingdom...PERIOD. It doens't say, "Once you understand, then God will hold you accountable." Because then I should ask, how about a mentally challenged individual, who grows up to be 20 years old, but has the mental capacity of a 6 year old. Will they see Heaven? |
The Bible also teaches that David would one day be reunited with his son that died.
If babies are destined for hell until they are born again, why would we fight so hard to stop abortion? Wouldn't they deserve to be killed and go to hell?
Regardless of whether or not babies can know something is wrong or not, what can they do to get right with God? They are helpless in this endeavor. They cannot respond in repentance and faith. They are developmentally unable to do so.
What about the children of believers? The Bible says that the children are sanctified through the parents. They are set apart. What happens when they die? What comfort would the parents have in their child's death, especially after a long illness in which they had to nurse the child? Imagine the guilt of the parents believing that if they had tried harder, prayed harder, spent more money on healthcare, etc., they could have saved their baby from hell.
We can't ignore the fact that David knew he'd see his son again. Where Scripture is silent or doesn't say much about a subject, it is unwise for us to make definitive pronouncements.
There is a great book by Craig R. Brown entitled "The Five Dilemmas of Calvinism" (Ligonier Ministries) that deals with 5 major misconceptions or "problem areas" that come up when speaking of the Reformed faith. He deals with this particular topic in one of the chapters. He gives several examples of God's special love and care for children. I have the book if you'd like to borrow it. Actually, he was on RC Sproul's "Renewing Your Mind" program back in November of last year. He and Dr. Sproul both agree that babies will be in heaven. RC Sproul and his wife personally suffered through 4 miscarriages, so the question is not just related to those who are actually born, but also for those who die in the womb.
_________________
It's true that doctrine divides. It's also true that love unifies. The unity we have in the faith is rooted and grounded in truth and love. Remove truth (right theology and doctrine) from the mix and you have less than Biblical unity. Remove love and you have no unity. Love causes us to seek truth and share that truth with others so that we become more unified. God is truth, and as we are more acquainted with His truth, the closer we are to Him, and the closer we become to each other |
| | | | btate0121
Age : 26
Joined : 28 Jan 2008
Posts : 61
Location : Manassas, VA
| | Subject: Re: AGE of Accountability Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:01 pm | |
| Great topic... this is one my wife and I have wrestled with (being parents of one and another on the way)... a very near and dear to my heart topic. We've settled on not pursuing it and sticking with the answer Mike has given.... both Job and David talked of seeing their children in the life to come (though the age of Jobs children hasn't really been established in my mind). My inclination is to take that hard stand like Jewel does and say "well... i better get started on DAY ONE with presenting my lil baby with the gospel when january comes!!!!"... imagine that i'm clipping the U.Chord and presenting my child with the law at the same time "i know you've only been here a few seconds... but this is important son... something could happen to you on your way over to that table where they clean you up!".
lol
seriously tho. While the Bible is clear that Christ is the ONLY way, it also does speak of small children being in heaven... but what age IS the age of accountability? does my 4 year old have something to fear? |
| | | | LaRosa
Moderator
Age : 26
Joined : 30 Jan 2008
Posts : 87
Location : Austin, TX
| | Subject: Re: AGE of Accountability Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:27 pm | |
| here's something interesting to toss into the discussion...
could the destination of a child under the age of accountability depend on the faith of their parents?...
1 Cor. 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.
just some food for thought
lj. |
| | | | btate0121
Age : 26
Joined : 28 Jan 2008
Posts : 61
Location : Manassas, VA
| | Subject: Re: AGE of Accountability Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:19 pm | |
| | whoa.... that settles it for me.. i'mma have to dig into that one a little deeper. |
| | | | btate0121
Age : 26
Joined : 28 Jan 2008
Posts : 61
Location : Manassas, VA
| | Subject: Re: AGE of Accountability Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:21 pm | |
| | just had this thought... so in going with the 1 corinthians script.... does that mean aborted children from the unsaved... or just children who are born to the unsaved who die.... they're going to hell? |
| | | | Expositor
Administrator
Joined : 25 Jan 2008
Posts : 585
Location : Baltimore, MD
| | Subject: Re: AGE of Accountability Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:55 pm | |
| Consider Jeremiah 19:4
The LORD is rebuking Israel for all the atrocious things they had done. One of which was sacrificing their children to the pagan gods. God refers to those sacrifices as "innocents"
Though babies are born with the inherited Adamic nature and are therefore inclined toward evil, they are not guilty of personal, willful sin against God.
Even more elementary to the topic is that salvation is by grace alone. Even the faith we are given is accomplished by God's grace. Salvation is not based upon our decision, but by the grace of God.
For those who are able to understand right from wrong, good from evil, etc., they are commanded to repent and believe. Could God save men through faith and it be totally of grace? Of course. We believe that much. But, if God so chose to save all babies, regardless of who their parents are, is the salvation of those babies still by grace alone? Certainly.
Consider David's story again. Remember that David had four other sons besides the one who died as an infant. When they died, his reaction was much different. He was deeply sorrowed with their deaths. He knew Absalom was not in heaven, and even said that he wished it was him who had died in Absalom's place. But, with the baby, he got up, washed and put on new clothes and ate. He knew where he himself was going, as he stated in Psalm 23 "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever." Where he was going, he knew he'd see his son there.
_________________
It's true that doctrine divides. It's also true that love unifies. The unity we have in the faith is rooted and grounded in truth and love. Remove truth (right theology and doctrine) from the mix and you have less than Biblical unity. Remove love and you have no unity. Love causes us to seek truth and share that truth with others so that we become more unified. God is truth, and as we are more acquainted with His truth, the closer we are to Him, and the closer we become to each other |
| | | | WhyMe
Joined : 24 Apr 2008
Posts : 8
| | Subject: Re: AGE of Accountability Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:24 am | |
| I think the best answer is to say, "I don't know since the bible doesn't specifically address the issue".
The bible does address who can be saved and that's whom God has chosen. So I have no problem in believing Babies like adults are chosen to be saved. I personally believe God does show favor to his elect by choosing to save their kids who have died as an infant.
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
We have an example in Luke where John was saved from the womb. So here we can kind of see a case against the age of accountability. It's was by the Sovereign Will of God to save this baby from the womb.
Luk 1:15 "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb.
Good topic!
_________________
I don’t deserve it, I’m worthless, but treated as perfect
I sin more than I wanna, but my sins are a goner
I was lost, but redeemed, then adopted and cleaned
WhyMe? WhyMe? ~ Trip Lee |
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