LOL@ seth


HUH?!?

@ LaRosa

aiiight.. but remember that the context paul gave it was suggesting that God decided these things BEFORE THEY WERE BORN.. and he even went on to actually say that it wasn't based on any good works, or anything he saw in there future. God simply elected the one he wanted and he also happened to ordain that the line would continue. The context Paul used the example of the two spoke SPECIFICALLY to election without any of the deciding factor being anything either of the two babies would do in the future. ("so that God's purpose of election might stand"... "not being based on any good works, but solely based on God's grace"). it had nothing to do with the lives they led.. God himself decided who he would elect and "unelect" i guess. I don't see it at all describing "the lives they lived". again.. he was refering to the two as babies in the womb. the reason Jacob's line continued the way it did is because God ordained it to be so.. not because Jacob was special at all, and definitely not because God flipped ahead in the history books to see if Jacob would be a good guy or not. if i recall.. he wasn't good anyway. LOL. it was strictly based on God's election.. which is my point.

Esau and Jacob both lived beyond childhood.

I think it's interesting that God refers to sacrificed children as "innocent" in Jer. 22.

i agree.. very interesting. You brought that up at the DOG conference this past weekend and i have been thinking about it.. but it strikes me as one of those cases where you interpret the unclear in light of the clear.

Let me add.. that i'm NOT saying that all babies go to hell. I'm saying that's it's POSSIBLE that SOME do.. but ultimately.. we can never know, so "it's in God's hand's".

so how do we reconcile the passage that says "the innocents" in jeremiah with what we see the Bible clearly teaching that we all born with an adamic nature.. and are enemies with God from birth?

we can pick vague comments that pass by "all children go to heaven" (jobs comment about his children, David's comments about his children, the passage in Jeremiah that refers to the children as innocents). but i think people really show their beliefs when we write books on how to raise children, when we discuss our kids as being "wicked and evil". how does total depravity NOT cover children? we all hear the example "you don't have to teach kids how to lie".. we see from their own lives and actions that they are NOT demonstrating fruits of the spirit...

but when it comes to this we say "it's not fair that God would send little babies to hell!"

under that same argument it wasn't fair to raise pharouhe up to be a vessel of wrath.

here's what i want to know

what scripture teaches us that there is a transition from "innocent little kiddies" into vile rebellious adults?

none...

what scripture teaches us that kids. really are not under the curse of sin?

how can we witness to other adults and say "hey.. are you a good person?" and when they say YES we respond with "nope.. but Bible says NONE seek after God"... and say..well. that obviously doesn't apply to kids...

see the greek word for NONE in this sentence is "nonebutchildrenogolopogous" which is translated "none but the kiddies". so he was refering to all but the kiddies. LOL.

i had to throw in some sarcasm there. sorry. My point is... do we believe what we're telling people the Bible says or not? we can't condemn all of the adults in society on a scripture that teaches that we're all wicked.. and bend the text to exclude children.

so.. my position is...

"It's up to God". he purposes his elect from eternity past... if his elect includes all kids.. GREAT.. but we can't know.. scripture doesn't show us this clearly... maybe i'm wrong. *shrug*

I see myself and chaff before God. i am literally nothing special. if we as adults can say that about ourselves.. why do the rules change with children? children are just as sinful and rebellious as we are as adults. they are JUST as worthless before God. so the thinking that "well.. kids MUST have a special place in the heart of God".. well.. i think they take up the same space that the rest of humanity does. clay pots. he can smash whichever ones he wants..

He IS SOVEREIGN GOD and can and will do with His creation whatever He chooses... and if he chooses to smash me or my little one... it hurts me.. but Glory be to God!

I am nothing.

Here's a question to ponder...

Do babies willfully, consciously sin? At the point of infancy, is there any real understanding of right and wrong, God's judgment against sin?

I recommend a short book called "The Five Dilemmas of Calvinism" by Craig Brown. It's published under Ligonier Ministries. Both he and RC Sproul hold the position that babies go to heaven.

If you can't buy it right now, perhaps I can post an excerpt.

If babies go to hell, how will they fare at the judgment seat of Christ? Will they face that Great White Throne?

While we don't see a passage that says all babies go to heaven, we also don't have any examples of children being in hell. When Pharaoh's son was killed, it doesn't mention what happened to him. However, we know what did happen to David's son.

Looking at Jesus' special care for the children in His earthly ministry, and seeing other passages that speak of children as innocents, I'd find it hard to believe that He would have been so kind to them while He was here on earth, just to send one of them to hell if they died the day after they saw Jesus. When Jesus spoke of wickedness that deserved condemnation, he wasn't very "nice" to folks. He spoke in clear and certain terms. If children were in danger of hell, He should have preached to them as well. Don't you think He would have?

VERY interesting points mike.... but think about what they're promoting.. that means the children of SINNERS are also entitled to heaven. ok.. sure.. that's not SO hard to accept.. here's a hard one for you.

There are people all over the world that live in tribes in forests and mountains etc that have NO contact with chrstians and are NOT recieving the gospel. everyday some of them die... i don't think either you or me would make a case that those people go to heaven because God couldn't POSSIBLY hold them accountable for sins they had NO IDEA they were committing right? we would probably argue the opposite. We'd argue that they would still be accountable for their sin.. that's unfair by your standards and shouldn't be allowed...

but isn't this the same argument you're making for children though?

i'm not saying that they do NOT go to heaven because of this.. i'm just saying that "I didn't know" doesn't equal automatic pardon. no scripture teaches it. I love sproul.. but there are more than a few things we don't agree on (infant baptism?!? HUH?) LOL.

EDIT:

Also.. GREAT point about pharouhs son.. no we're NOT told what happened to him.. but we can CERTAINLY draw conclusions. you mentioned the passage in jeremiah calling the sacrificed children innocents... so following your logic.. God himself would also be guilty of killing "innocents" if we make the argument that all children are indeed "innocent". we can argue "well. the egyptian kiddies were sons evil people".. ok.. but what about the flood? God flooded the earth.. we'd be kind of silly to believe that there were no "babies on board" at the time of the flood right? how about when Pharoghe and Ceasar killed the little boys in egypt (the story of moses) and in the providences around Bethlehem (the birth story of Jesus).... guess what.. God ALLOWED those things.. why? he is SOVEREIGN. by your argument.. I can extend that to say "kids shouldn't die AT ALL to begin with because God has a special place for kids.. and bad things don't happen to kids".

Jesus was kind to kiddies. absolutely! he was also kind to sinners! he died for our SINS!!! he was kind to the desciples, he was kind to the adulterous woman, he was BEYOND kind when raising lazerus from the dead! He was kind when he hooked up the wine at the marriage ceremony! Jesus did all KINDS of nice things! I can't see that being an argument for explicit kindness on a class of people other than "those he elected!". all else are vessels of wrath.. right? but you do bring up some very good questions and points to ponder.

EDIT revisited: i need to learn how to spell pharouh...(sp?)

Maybe you're misunderstanding my point. While people in boingo boingo may never hear the gospel, the laws of God are written upon their hearts and the conscience bears witness.

I think it's also not good for us to assume that people not hearing the gospel in the world is the norm. The Church has had 2000 years of evangelism and countless Christian missionaries and martyrs for the faith have given their lives in the remotest parts of the earth. Their blood still cries out. Remember that God says He has people in every place in the world. He's got believers everywhere.

I was watching this one show on TV that dealt with the day to day life of some tribal people. They were presented the gospel but preferred their way of living. Most people would think these people were "unreached" by their location in the world and the way they lived. They were reached, but they just rejected it for the most part. There were some who believed and left the tribe, but not most.

My view doesn't make God a killer of innocents. Actually, it would be very gracious of God to take babies who might have grown up into various sinful lifestyles and false religions. How gracious would it be for God to save children from Hinduism, Islam and other false religions?

One last thing to remember is that salvation is solely by grace. It's not based upon man's decision. Yeah, these kiddies may not have grown up to either reject or accept the gospel, but that doesn't negate God's grace in rescuing babies.

I think we'd agree that life begins in the womb, correct? What about miscarried babies? Do you think miscarried babies are punished in hell? What about aborted babies? Will God say to them, "Sorry little ones, but Adam is your representative and you must burn in hell forever"?

Whether God saves all babies, or just children of the elect, or just elect children, I don't think it's wise to say that babies are punished for their personal sins. There is no willful disobedience with them.

Good points.. but I think my arguments still stand.. but at this point rather than going back and forth for the sake of going back and forth I\'ll stop here. This was fun! I really enjoyed this! I think there\'s plenty here for cats to read and make up there own minds.. in the end it\'s non essential and not up to us.. it\'s as I said \"in God\'s hands\"! *wink*

i\'ll make one quick rebuttle, as for aborted kids and all that..

I agree.. life starts at CONCEPTION.. in the womb. the default verdict is GUILTY or innocent according to scripture? you\'re argument by passes scripture and \"born into sin\". Naaa.. i don\'t think fetuses or aborted babies burn in hizzle..... unless God saw fit for that to happen to them.. and it\'s on a case by case basis. i think \"all babies go to heaven\" is unscriptural.. and the same for \"all babies go to hell\". It\'s in God\'s hands. he decides.. so that being said.. he may decide \"all babies to go heaven\". in that case.. let God be TRUE and every man a liar (including me). so what... i was wrong.. big whoop. LOL. but i don\'t see a Biblical case for stating that all kids are innocent.. when EVERY SINGLE BOOK on the shelves that teaches christian parents to raise kids tells parents \"show your children what sin is.. point them to the cross!!!\"

sooooo... what about kids who sin? i guess they\'re sin is automatically purged? and what of God\'s holiness.. i guess kids sin is cryptonite to his holiness and nullifies it\'s destructive effects on sinners? Kids sin.. therefore they are sinners.. wait.... kids are sinners.. therefore they sin.. right? or wrong? what does the Bible say about all men (and women, and children?).. we\'re all sinners.

how about this.. there was a way of the master episode where todd played a clip of a little boy (about 7 or 8 i think) who stole his grannies car.. and the kid was quoted as \"it\'s fun to do bad things\". i guess God is just like... \"awwwwww.. that\'s cute... no hell for you lil guy! we\'re good!\".

you have to keep lowering your argument.. \"well.. that 8 year old dude is at the age of accountability!!!\"

what AGE of accountability? what age is that? i\'ve heard peeps argue it\'s around 12 or 15... so what about the sin committed before those times?

your argument folded in on itself. you admitted that all people are born INTO SIN.. regardless of age.. whether they commit them conciously or not.. they are sinners.

the defacto status of each person... is that we start in sin... then are regenerated and given Christ\'s righteousness.

your argument proposes 3 stages... innocent sinner (which falls down under scrutiny), to sinner, to regeneration.

are they sinners or not?


ok.. that was longer than i had orginally intended.. i guess i\'m not done. LOL


as for my soundclick jawn. I took it down. I'm workin out some stuff. God grew me and convicted me of somethings.. so i'm starting over.. music will be back soon. but in the meantime i can send you a zip file if you shoot me your email addy bro!

Did you see that the mp3's are up from the DOG conference? i missed a portion of irrisistable grace... so thats a reaaal good look.

I don't argue for an AGE of accountability. I thought that was clear in my earlier posts. I believe there is a level of accountability, but I think that can differ. But, that's just my view.

Saying that my argument folded in on itself is not true, since it appears you aren't clear, or I haven't been as clear someway about just what I'm saying. Perhaps this is better suited for a phone call/in person discussion.

I agree in teaching kids about their sin/the cross/Jesus. Absolutely. But, I'm talking about babies/infants/newborns. Can you imagine having a child, loving it, thanking God for it (him or her sounds better) and then they die a day after birth? Can you imagine the tremendous pain of thinking one day that you have this "bundle of joy," a blessing of God, and now this baby is in hell? I'm arguing for babies, not children with rational minds who willfully disobey.

email: byhisgraceiam@yahoo.com

But, of course! Dopeness! Already sent the link to some friends.

dont forget i have a 4 year old and a baby in the oven.. i'm definitely familiar with those feelings.. and all i can say is.

"God.. you are sovereign and tell me that I should not be anxious about anything. I put my child's well being in your hands and leave them there... do whatever you will.. because you are God! Even if it hurts me... even if i would argue against your decision.. even if i would do things differently... even if i would hate you for it... my family, myself, my friends, my children... will all be cast away if you desire it.... because You are God.. and YOUR GLORY is worth MORE than the life me any of these things". How BEAUTIFUL does that make His grace look?!?! that we are THAT WORTHLESS and trifling.. but he would still say "meh.. i'll spare you" based sola gratia. His... GRACE... alone. children are not precious. People are not special. The Earth is not a gem. the elect are... only because He elected them. amen?

fast forward.. do you think those "bundle of joy" feelings lessen because the children get older? on the contrary.. my wife and I marvel everyday that our little girl is now 4 years old. I DREAD the day she turns 18 and says "i'm off to college" or "i signed my first lease.. i'm moving out".

talk about pain... there's a song by Steve curtis chapman i think that talks about "dancing with cinderella" or something like that... and each verse describes his little girl growing up.

v1.. my wife and i were smiling and all happy like "awwwwww"

v2.. we were still smiling... but it was very forced

v3... i had to leave the room... one day.. i will have to give my little precious to another man to take care of.. after spending all of her life taking care of her... where did i put my bullets?

but the connection to children grows at each stage of parenthood. so if i spend my time.. trying to raise my child into christianity.. only to have them go into wicca in their teen years... how do you think i would feel? Angry.. bitter... upset. but it's not about how I feel.. what is she saying to God.

so... by that thinking... i want my kids to stay young and ignorant.. and actually PRAY for a mental handicap to ensure my kids entrance to heaven. I jest, but really.. that's the extension of all this. should parents grow MORE CONCERNED with their childs spiritual well being as they grow older because the level of accountability grows? and you already know what i'm finta say... sola scriptura remember? Show me the scriptura!

annnd stop! i promise.. no more rebuttles from me ... (as long as you don't rebuttle me LOL).

PS

my avatar is BANGIN man... ya need to fix them glasses bredda. LOL. we can definitely build on this over the phone or at the next FFF that we attend (in a decade or so.. LOL).

prays for Mike's bachelorhood to end